About Editing Dividends

Continuing the conversation of the article here as it would be easier with the syntax highlighting.

For example, DBS has been changed. But there is no flag anywhere to say this.

Agree. It would be easier for Friends to see all the edits too. I have added a new page here.

There is also this phantom change
https://stocks.cafe/stock/dividend/D05/dbs+group+holdings+ltd?type=xmanual&exchange=XSES
Which has been “approved”, but has no data in it.

This is a “deletion” change. Agree. We should also request reasoning for deletion changes (currently only adding requires). Done. Going forward, deletion also requires reasoning/source.

It looks like I can now globally remove or edit any of the historic dividends. I didn’t try, as I am not sure if I would be able to reinstate the original data.

Nope. Approved dividends cannot be remove or edit. You can at most add. And I can always revert to the previous state.

How do I know it has been deleted?

The new page highlighting all the changes by users.

How can I retrieve my actual yield on cost, which has presumably been reduced as an actual distribution was wiped from the system?

I will only approve edits that are official or on projected dividends and rejects/remove all other edits. So, all edits should eventually become system edits anyway. This feature is mostly to fixed the lag in upstream and the fact that I cannot go read every company announcements personally.

There is also this phantom change
https://stocks.cafe/stock/dividend/D05/dbs+group+holdings+ltd?type=xmanual&exchange=XSES
Which has been “approved”, but has no data in it.

This is a “deletion” change. Agree. We should also request reasoning for deletion changes (currently only adding requires). Done. Going forward, deletion also requires reasoning/source.

I do not understand where the date 2020-05-01 comes from.

The new page highlighting all the changes by users.

Please add in the counter name. I do not carry all the codes in my head…

This feature is mostly to fixed the lag in upstream

The 2 to 3 day lag was never a problem for me. Will the user changes be automatically overridden when the datastream sends them?

evankoh - @MedMan, that is a separate issue. >Please see this article for some context => >https://stocks.cafe/article/view/82/do+you+really+know+how+to+calculate+current+yield
This feature would not fix that.

I don’t understand why editing distributions would not provide the ability to fix the current yield. I must be missing a key ingredient.

I still feel that this function should be sandboxed and not adjust the actual/global data, and that there should be a flag everywhere that the change has made an adjustment to the counter/portfolio numbers. It should be transparent that a dividend has been modified.

The function could be very useful, but I think it should be possible to accept/reject the mods on a portfolio and counter basis. But better to have a separate SCYield calculation.

It is also not clear where exactly the change has been implemented and which figures are affected.

For example

  • Portfolio page yield calculations.
  • Report page calculations including XIRR and TWR
  • Dividends paid/due (which would a disaster)

There is, for me, a lack of clarity in this change.

I do not understand where the date 2020-05-01 comes from.

It is the projected dividend ex-date that is being deleted

Please add in the counter name. I do not carry all the codes in my head…

Done.

Will the user changes be automatically overridden when the datastream sends them?

Nope. User changes precedes upstream. Although I still store upstream data.

I don’t understand why editing distributions would not provide the ability to fix the current yield. I must be missing a key ingredient.

Just because the way the algorithm works now.

It is also not clear where exactly the change has been implemented and which figures are affected.

It will affect everywhere. All those that you have listed would be affected. However, again, I will vet through every single one of them. Even if users would deliberately try to create havoc, I would revert them very quickly since I am on StocksCafe basically everyday. If it really happens that there are users who deliberately try to create havoc often, then I will switch to stricter requirements (e.g. only selected users can make edits rather than all friends).

There is, for me, a lack of clarity in this change.

Did not really want to explain because it will be very long and likely to make it more confusing for people.

It will affect everywhere. All those that you have listed would be affected.

That is ridiculous.

When I have been paid say SGD 500 in dividends by a counter, then that is fixed in stone and also ends up in my cash flow and balance.

If somebody comes along and says to be more “accurate” with the yield it has to be changed to SGD 400 the whole portfolio gets fucked.

Please tell me it isn’t true.

If somebody comes along and says to be more “accurate” with the yield it has to be changed to SGD 400 the whole portfolio gets fucked.

Please watch your language.

When I have been paid say SGD 500 in dividends by a counter, then that is fixed in stone and also ends up in my cash flow and balance.

Users cannot edit past dividends. Once it is past ExDate, it will not be editable except by me. This feature is for future.

So, this will not happen.

Users cannot edit past dividends. Once it is past ExDate, it will not be editable except by me. This >feature is for future.

So, this will not happen.

I have just removed from MINT

Successfully remove dividends M44U on 2020-05-05 with SGD

So it DID happen.

Please reverse this change.

2020-05-05 is in the future…

Anyway, removed the change.

Sorry, try this one.

Successfully remove dividends M44U on 2018-07-27 with SGD

Oppss… Sorry.

Fixed. Try again!

Yeah, and how many more “oopsies” are we going to have?

Note that for the above counter a number of distributions are displayed in the format 7.3E-4

That is the nature of continuous development especially since it is one man show. Which is why we need vigilant user like yourself to help vet stuff.

Anyway, I have switched from “Take effect immediately” to “Take effect after approval” to minimize chance of erroneous edits.

There’s two counters which they made annoucements on their dividends, but with the announcements being incomplete, cause the calculated current yield to be not so right.

First is SGX that announced 0.30 full year dividends. As this is still the first year, what we have in projections from 2018 is partly incorrect, because thru inference, the dividends will be 0.075 per quarter in months of feb / may / august and november.

The second, arguably in a worse position, is DBS that announced in May that it will make quarterly dividends, and proceeded with 0.30 payout in late May. What one should deduce then is that instead of 1.20 being paid in May and Aug, the new payout should be 0.30 in May / Aug / Nov / Feb.

I think different folks will have diff thoughts on adjusting this.

For now, I guess we are more comfortable with adjusting what is really announced, but there could be difficulty adapting to half represented info like DBS / SGX. Likewise, for some reits, which I have been projecting on excel, should have better yields than based on projection. These are arguably more difficult to defend if I were to say since the last payout in last quarter is at X, the next three quarters should be at least X.

So using DBS as example. When august comes and they announce dividends of 30 cents, what we will see in the data is remove 60 cents, replace with 30 cents. The 30 cents to be paid in november (not committed in announcements) would be gone.

So if I were to use this feature to edit the projected dividends, then who is more right?

Read the whole thread. It’s a very commendable effort by Evan to introduce feature to help make ‘projected’ yield more accurate. However, all this approving and vetting will take up increasingly significant time/resources on Evan’s part to screen/vet and it’s basically relying on a one man’s effort. As all investors should know, we should not rely on trailing dividend yield to predict future dividend yield and we should do our homework to predict what is the expected yield based on how the business is doing. Even if there is a predicted yield, i will not rely on it personally. Take for example say Singtel trailing & ‘predicted’ dividend is ~5%, however i expect next FY dividend to be cut as the dividend is alr above EPS and more than their usual dividend policy.

Honestly, i am not sure whether this feature is worth the efforts/time it’s going to spend to maintain an accurate ‘up-to-market’ announcements predicted yield and to troubleshoot any teething bugs in the feature. What i found really useful though was the yield on cost (and current yield on secondary basis) so hope that these will not be impacted (seems they will not be though, unless there are some other bugs appear)

RE : yield on cost (and current yield)

Yes, they will certainly be impacted, it is the main objective of the change…

  1. the function allows retrospective modification of actual dividends paid in order to adjust the yield.

  2. it even allows the pre-determination of dividends by users, which will NOT be automatically overridden by the actual SGX data when the dividends are officially announced.

There is also the unknown issue of real cash flow turning into fake cash flow, if, for example, the dividends are modified or even eliminated. At the moment my cash balance reflects how much cash I have in my bank account. If the dividends are modified, then the balance will no longer remain in step.

These are some of the reasons I am against this change if it is implemented in this fashion.

  1. From Evan’s reply, he is allowing changes only for the future predicted dividends (after removing the option to edit past dividends by other users)

  2. This is rather more concerning if this is indeed the case. However, did not see where this was mentioned. Evan, can you confirm on this pls? I believe this is not the intention where users edits will overide actual SGX data

See Evan’s reply to me above

Will the user changes be automatically overridden when the datastream sends them?*

Nope. User changes precedes upstream. Although I still store upstream data
.

It actually depends on the situation. I just created a “Projected” dividends type where users can add. That will be overridden by upstream data when it comes in.

If it is a non “Projected” type, then it will precedes upstream data. But I intend to only approve “announced” dividends for non-Projected type.

Cheers,
Evan

Thanks for replying Evan. OK, to sum up what i understood thus far:

a) Future (or the “Projected”) dividends can be edited by users. However, these will subsequently be overridden by actual dividend data when it comes in. And these will become past dividends.

b) Past dividends (or non-Projected dividends) can be requested to be edited by users but any changes will only be approved by you after it has been screened by you. If the changes are not real official data announced by the companies, they will not be approved.

If that is so, i am ok with that.
Though it seems you have taken on more work on yourself with this change just to improve the predicted yield :slight_smile:

Yes for “Projected” dividends. But users can also add future which are not “Projected” dividends. You can think of them as future announced dividends. Those will not be overridden by upstream data. For these, I will only approve it if it has been announced. (Usually announced by company is 2-3 working days faster than upstream.)

Past dividends are not editable by users except me.

StocksCafe in general is a lot of work :slight_smile:

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